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Please Get Rid of Sandex and or Any Form of Play Money

COCA Yven

April 22, 2017 03:44

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Please get rid of Sandex

We want to have  the ability to get consumers to come on Sansar and immediately spend money.

There is no way We are  would promote anything We create on Sansar on the web , if then we have to ask for Sandex.

 

Just Imagine

A guy promotes his experiences on the web .

COME TO MY EXPERIENCE click  this link, only 5000 sandex a month!!

 

This is pathetic.

If We offer a product in the web, we give a demo and a click to buy link in real world currency.

Please add a real world currency button to pay to buy an experience or to buy marketplace items...no fuss no registration.

Drop it right up there in  the top right corner, nice and big in gold yellow with US euro or whatever currency the publisher is willing to accept.

We dont need to have people come on Sansar and take a month before choosing to commit to spend money here or free loading as it happens in Second Life.

 

Thank You

 

 

24 comments

• 5
  
  Plastic April 26, 2017 17:00

  Probably not a good idea. Many people wouldn't even consider spending 2 dollars on a virtual object, but will drop any amount of so called "play" money because to them, it doesn't hold as much worth as 2 real life dollars, even though that amount of "play" money equals 2 real life dollars anyway.

• 1
  
  COCA Yven April 26, 2017 18:02

  @Plastic

  There are currently million of users logged in Steam at all hours, every day of the week.

  There is NOT one single one of them that is offered to go game anything at a play money price.

  Maybe You are not into making money with CG or content creation, and that is fine, however You should well understand that Sansar is designed for experience creators to be able to advertise on the media their Sansar experience and get clients come log into them.

  Now just to be clear to You  and to let You understand what this request is about.

  Sansar content creators and experience creators have NO interest what so ever to promote Sansar... Sansar is NOT second Life.

  While Yes You can say how You like Sansar to Your friends and encourage them to try it out, those who  will invest money in here they will do so ONLY to promote what they offer  to sell to the consumer.

  When a consumer logs into Sansar he is NOT on a grid, he is not flying around from sim to sim, while he might be interested in some experiences that he pays for to play in He will play in some experiences here just as he will play other games on his PC that he payed for.

  To say it bluntly, Sansar can be made up as an example of only junk  boring static experiences and ONE SINGLE super amazing game that can compete with triple A titles.....in such case and in any other case it must be made clear that the driver for people to come  over is NOT into creating a Sansar account but rather into being in a particular experience that they pay for.

  Needless to say that those who have the ability to create amazing experiences and games on the Sansar platform have no interest into investing tons of money into advertizing campaigns for a product that they will have to offer as play money , and have the client go through a tedious and time consuming process of understanding play money value.

  Last but not least, if You was for example to budget 25 thousand dollars into advertising campaigns this year for promoting your Experience that is  on the Sansar  platform , You will certainly want to be sure that  when the client saw Your ad and came over he will LAND ONLY AND DIRECTLY IN  YOUR EXPERIENCE and no others, after he already payed for what You offer, and has made an account with You and not linden lab, because the client is Yours not Sansars.

  My request may very likely never be granted, but this is what makes the difference  between making petty cash  for people creating content on Sansar and Linden  Lab and making serious money, just like any other regular You tuber.

  Needless to say that also paying for Linden Lab server in play money is definitely a no go, because if We  need 7/800 instances of My experience to host 20 30 k clients, we definitely have no pleasure to explaining to our accountant and to tax officers about play money spread and volatility.

  For all the reasons above and many much more, a product that is offered to a client and a product offered by the service provider, MUST have a CLEAR SURE guaranteed price...offering a product in play money, involves the expense of coaching the consumer about how much  what you offer truly costs, , time, uncertain commissions, uncertain expenses..which can add up to almost if not over 10% of uncertain value which is in most cases on large scale is impossible to neither justify to the tax authorities nor precisely quantify....and no one likes to work without being able to precisely budget and forecast their operating costs, or worse quantify them precisely, because it makes it impossible to quantify precisely net profit or net losses.

   

   You can sell your 2 dollar/200 sandex item or give it for free, if that as a  profession is appealing to You, You are very well entitled to come on Sansar have fun like anyone else and be creative.

  As I see things apart  of the play money issue the probable is scalability, because no one will want to start any project in big scale on Sansar, apart that Linden Lab commissions on sales are still a big mistery, but assuming you start with eg 10 servers 10 experiences and you become successful  and get up to eg 500 experiences(not scenes actual experiences), then we go back to what I wrote before as things will start to get fiscally messy, and if You get to a point were You need to invest in marketing campaigns, because trust me You will need to, You will have a big big problem in offering your product, if You cannot state precisely how much it will cost to people you advertise to...and worse even You cannot even sell them  Play money your self which could simplify things to a certain extent, if then You would have an agreement on how much linden lab will make You pay for play money .

  Trust me play money is a very bad thing for having a successful gaming multiplatform, because Sansar is just this, a multiplatform, and it can be very well the main reason for which Sansar and all equity put into it by investors, can sink abruptly very very fast.

  I  think Linden Lab should be profitable and successful and should focus in making money as service provider and a fair commission on sales from 1/to maximum 5.9999% and not to want to eat into too many plates and be respectful of their clients as they are the ones to whom the consumers that will come on experiences will belong to.

• 4
  
  Zeja Pyle April 28, 2017 06:23

  Please, Linden Lab... don't include me in this "We" of his/her.

   

   

   

   

• 0
  
  COCA Yven April 28, 2017 10:17

  @Zeya Pyle

  Dear Zeya

  We, is referred to me and the other that work with me in a group, all of which are professional real life CG , VFX artists and software engineers commonly known as software developers and programmers, who are currently involved into development of holographic applications for gaming or architectural or military or server security &  maintenance related jobs.

  As it is, in no interest for Us to talk on behalf of anyone other that Us, please treat this feature request as something that is relevant to Us and others that  work in a studio environment and that look at Sansar as a product to be aware of and  explore if to exploit its business opportunities.

  While We respect Your opinions, We hope that You can respect ours and the feature requests that are relevant to making Sansar product profitable for ''experience'' developers...eg multiplayers wars on mars shooter game instanced 50 or 500 times with 1500 pr 15000 players online

   

  Edited by COCA Yven April 28, 2017 10:26
• 1
  
  ShallowR May 03, 2017 22:03

  While the value can be tied directly to LLs' currency, I think the ability to custom name your own currency per experience, Since this will not be grid style I see no harm or reason not to allow this;especially seeing as the currency regardless of name is directly tied to the Defacto currency name.
  Input anyone?

• 2
  
  COCA Yven May 04, 2017 04:55

  @Shallow

   

  Hi Shallow

  Yes of course You can Peg exchange rates if it was not for the spread which is the rake the house cashes in along with the money that is not cashed out.

  However thats not the point

  If I make a game  on Sansar software and servers and wanna offer it for 39.99 euro, I want the client to now that that is, how much it costs click and play right away, period!

  No fuss, no hassle , no distractions, no atlas, no marketplace, no nothing except  the installer and immediately   appear in the experience he payed for, all geared up as I offer.

  He can later make an account with Me to buy My stuff relevant to My game,  vehicles,  characters, clothing,  hair, shoes, inventory etcetc.

  Using play money will limit the amount of clients You can have to ONLY those who already made an account on Sansar, because they already have passed the process of committing to play money after a few weeks from registration

  Using real money limits the amount of clients You can have to the 1.8 billion active PC gamers to offer Your product to, just like every one else does, immediately ready to commit to spend!!

  https://mygaming.co.za/news/features/89913-there-are-1-8-billion-gamers-in-the-world-and-pc-gaming-dominates-the-market.html

  Do You want a new client that You brought on Sansar to commit to You immediately or do You prefer  for him to go around and explore a little before he commits to buy sandex?!

  Do you really want to risk this guy to leave to go back to Steam or his playstation, because of the play money, that 1.8 billion gamers minus the 1 million SL registered ones NEVER USE?!

• 1
  
  Shack Dougall July 12, 2017 15:45

  Good discussion. 

  The situation is different today than it was when Second Life was created.  Today, many users are familiar with making in-game purchases using real money on smart phone games and facebook.

  Unless LL is using the exchange to skirt some legal loophole, I'm not sure what it buys us.

• 0
  
  Neen August 03, 2017 13:41

  I don't know if the context in which the above comments were made has changed, but thinking you'll be able to "sell an installer" to a customer so they can "just get in the experience" seems absurd to me, considering everything we've heard about Sansar before creators were even able to sign up.

  Sansar isn't just a game-making engine.

  You won't be able to avoid having to sign up even if LL did away with Sandollars. It's intended to be "social VR," so having an account to identify yourself is essential for any of the social activities and user retention. (You're more likely to stay if you have a friend list with people on it, for many reasons.)

• 0
  
  COCA Yven August 03, 2017 14:27

  @Neen
  Hello Neen

  Making Your own website , with the download of Sansar installer, is something that can be done very easily.
  The point is that Sansar is designed to allow direct acess to an expereince , where creator of teh expereince has total control on the visitors invetory meaning, that once You will login that particular experience You Avatar and inventory and settings will be no other than the ones the creator of that experience provided for You to to have .
  So to be frank Sansar is quite a game making engine indeed , from a render engine point of view, physics point of view and scripting point of view....I can then agree that Sansar features at this stage into the so called beta are so poor that it makes it impossible for those groups of individuals that work together in gaming related stuff and coding, to be capable to deliver anything playable within 80000 120000 hours of work....Also the instancing at this very moment is very limited to only maximum 20 experiences, if the professional pricing for Sansar implies also the maximum amount of experiences that can be tied to one company account, for a professional use at least a few thousand would be minimum requirement for making any gaming development worth endeavoring and invest time and money in.

  A well designed  even single player title if successful can sell to over half a million clients a year, and the use of play money makes it also impossible apart all the caveats, to guarantee a price to Your client....because if You do develop games to sell to thousands of people marketing on the internet the client is Yours not Linden Labs.....thus with play money this also leaves very little to no incentive to develop up to date stunning looking and dynamic pay to play Sansar based ''experiences''.

  Edited by COCA Yven August 03, 2017 14:46
• 0
  
  Lat Lovenkraft August 03, 2017 14:40

  It appears to me that resources for hosting Experiences is paid in real money and not in Sansar dollars. i.e. 99.99 a month for "x" Experiences

  And as of this writing I was not charged an upload fee to upload a 3D asset nor audio file that I made. 

  The only thing that required Sansar dollars are items created in the marketplace. 

  It appears to me that, as of this writing, an Experience-creator could live forever without using Sansar dollars if they made their own assets. Perhaps there might be an upload fee (real currency or game currency) in the future but its not the same as charging a consumer.

  I thought the idea of Experiences was more for advertising and promotion or business, arts, education, training, etc. and other institutional endeavors which would not need a lot of currency exchange. Build the experience. Offer it for free with a link in the hopes of promoting your venture.

  I doubt an Experience like a live concert would require Sansar dollars but i could be wrong. Or it might accept both in-world and out-world currency.

  I don't know if its against TOS to have a 3rd party gateway where certain experiences could be charged real currency before getting a token to enter an experience.  Maybe that is in the works for the Sansar plans if not farmed out to a Sansar-connected 3rd party.

  As far as Sansar becoming primarily a game-making engine, I am not sure that was a major goal during the pre-release promotions. I did not hear games mentioned as a priority when ideas were presented as to why Sansar could be consumed.  There seems to already be Multi-Player VR platforms with VR games. Not saying there won't be some games ceated and offered. 

  I envisioned, as one possibility, people creating Experiences that might be resold and packaged to core-product-creators/service providers.

  Ex: A company goes into  houses for sale and creates VR Experiences then sells them to Real Estate companies who list the houses and offer as an added benefit VR walk-thrus at their office, saving travel-time and circumventing show-time availability as well as the cost to the consumer to have to invest in the hardware and install software and learn the process. 

  And as another: 

  Ex: A company creates VR travelogue experiences and makes it so that a car company can promote their automobiles in conjunction with the travel Experience. So they would be selling the Experience for real currency to the car maker/dealer. The car maker/dealer pays the hosting charge, again in real currency, to host the experience.

  I also see applications in the educational and medical fields. 
  
  Housing, automotive, health care, and education costs seem to me to be the 4 largest areas of family expenditures.

  Targeting those areas seems to offer the greatest areas for profitability if you are seeking new markets.

  But who knows? Only time will tell.

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

• 0
  
  COCA Yven August 03, 2017 14:59

  @Lat

  Ehm the Experience Developer is a linden lab client that sells his experience to His own clients...at this very moment While the developer  can have a fix pricing(though nothing is mentioned about performance, which kind  makes it as if there is no reliable pricing), the gamer who will pay to pay in Your developed experiences, pays in Sandex, which is basically a no go because You would limit the amount of clients You can sell Your product to only to those that a regularly already registered and knwo the process of currency and billing, so even if Sansar had a million clients that are active and registered it would be a very very microscopic fish bowl to make business in.

  Everything has a other side of the coin, with play money Linden lab has an extra source of income and makes the content in the platform proprietary even if developed by others that pay for the service, but at the same time while making gross profit on the margin per clients, it limits  a lot the amount of clients pitched and converted to the platform.

  While is play money was not involved the linden lab could maybe ask a little more royalty on sales to the developer, while at the same time converting hundred of times more clients.

  It must be noted that  on Steam gaming outlets there are millions of users logged on at any given hour.....while entities using unreal engine or unity or cry engine or that make their own engine are in the few tens of thousands, of which a massive bulk uses unity for application developments for stuff like holoens and AR.

  So Linden Lab  is being both the platform provider for development and the outlet and the retailer, which is fine and good, for some business models, while very adverse to other models aimed at the mainstream segment.

  Thus my asking to drop the play money SL like Standard

• 0
  
  Lat Lovenkraft August 03, 2017 16:05

  I apologize. I did not know that people consuming Experiences must pay in Sansar dollars. Please point me to the Sansar literature that states this as future policy.

• 0
  
  Neen August 03, 2017 16:29

  @Yven: When I was talking about an installer, I thought you meant some separate installer specific to your experience. My bad.

  However, I still think there is a major disconnect between what you want to do and what the platform is aiming to do. Sansar is not the same as Unity or Unreal, even though all three can be used to create a controlled environment. Sansar's focus simply doesn't line up with yours unless things change drastically.

  And since you brought up Steam, what issue do you have with users having to register an account for Sansar before being able to play your game? Both require an account and come with social features attached, and a library of things to do.

  Don't take this as me disagreeing with what you want to do, I would love to create games or game-like experiences in Sansar and it will probably be my main focus in the future.

  And I definitely agree with you on Sansar being far too young to create a great experience on yet, the scripting lacks so many features that I -- coming from Second Life -- would take for granted such as playing animations on avatars, attaching avatars to objects, and having scripts attached to avatars.

   

  But to bring us back on topic, I do not think the existence of Sandollars (sorry if the word is obnoxious, I find it oddly amusing) on its own would turn people away.

  Many games and apps have their own proprietary currency that has no value outside it, unlike Sansar where it is "universal" and can be cashed out much like in Second Life. (Though I don't think being able to "cash out" would attract the average Joe either.)

• 0
  
  Teager August 03, 2017 16:38

  I support the Sansar dollar. The average consumer is more likely to spend money when it feels like "play money" than when they are digging out their credit card for every transaction. Assigning another name and value to the in world currency makes it feel like "play money" that belongs inside of the game and is safe to spend without assigning real world guilt. This leads to a more lively market with more open flow of cash, and that is most certainly a good thing for full time professionals like yourself and like me.

• 0
  
  Gindipple August 03, 2017 16:46

  I think COCO is pretty spot on about where the platform is heading.

  The problem is much of the user base right now was raised on SL and thinks this is SL 2.0. And I don't see that train of thought changing anytime soon.

  This has a lot of potential, but you have to think outside the SL box to see it.

  Hopefully in the future there will be alternative payment methods that at least blur the lines on the sandex currency. But I don't see it happening soon.

  Something as simple as a toggle to see currencies in your country's based on the current Sandex exchange rate would work. Then seamlessly it would covert your payment to theirs and run the transaction would work.

  It's certainly plausible for a user to come here only to ever go to one Experience and not care what the rest of it is.

  This is probably a good discussion for 1-2 years from now when it's viable.

   

• 0
  
  Neen August 03, 2017 17:30

  @Gindipple: I think a visual toggle between fake and real currency is an acceptable middle-ground.

  And, since I mentioned coming from SL, I don't think Sansar is SL 2.0 at all.
  But as things are now, it does not seem like Sansar will be geared towards solitary experiences with no effort put into getting users to try other experiences once they're on the platform, especially in a way that would allow new users to join experiences without an account.

  That said, I am very excited to see how things will develop. If I am wrong with my assumption, I won't be disappointed, but at the moment it feels like it would go against everything that has been said about Sansar so far.

  Edited by Neen August 03, 2017 17:31
• 0
  
  Monica April 01, 2019 13:37

  you can choose different payment methods for ecommerce and for other online transactions, there are more than 250+ payment platforms you can choose for your website. https://payment-gateways.net/

• 0
  
  COCA Yven April 01, 2019 17:01

  @Monica

  What  are You talking about?!

  This thread is about using real currency not play money, so that players will pay to play directly the content creator from the getgo on the very moment they  get into sansar  eg form an ad banner somewhere on the net without having to do and find out anything else to be able play immediately, and connect with the community of that particular experience and not have to deal with Linden Lab and  other creators  nor Sansar developers community.

  Point being that if  I or You as developer  attract a client on Sansar, then that client should be the developer's and not Linden Labs, because I payed solid money and human resources to get him  on My experience.

  I think You can agree that nobody is here to work for free for Sansar marketing unless Linden Lab decides to  make it totally opensource and attract open source aficionados.

   

  This thread is not about how You send money around the world or what payment  platform should a content creator choose to get his clients to pay him for the game they offer..

   

  Now Sansar is on Steam, so this officially made it a Linden Lab game, so not anymore a content creator and game developer platform.

  What  was the Atlas that was supposed to emulate Steam is not a directory and nothing more, and the project will gradually fade away.

  It would be also interesting to know how  Project Sansar managed to be greenlit

   

   

   

  Edited by COCA Yven April 01, 2019 17:11
• 0
  
  Banned April 02, 2019 03:50

  Let's also drop the entire marketplace. 

  Let's drop Sansar as a whole.

  Let's drop our computers out of a window, too.

  All sounds like fun to me. :D

• 0
  
  COCA Yven April 02, 2019 09:02

  @Banned

   

  Unfortunately  aside dropping computers out of the window, this is what  has happened with  99% of the bulk of content creators who joined the preview...which is definitely way north of the thousand mark.

  and forced Sansar to end up on steam as a freebie. with only just over steam client 100 comments vs  the over 40k  that VR chat   has.

  Edited by COCA Yven April 02, 2019 09:04
• 0
  
  Bluebell April 02, 2019 13:43

  If you don't like how Sansar is run by LL, if you don't like the way the market works, if you think pretty much everything about it should be different... Maybe Sansar is just not your thing?

  If you get a cat and expect it to behave like a dog, you might have been better off getting just a dog.

• 0
  
  COCA Yven April 02, 2019 16:58

  @Bluebell

  This is irrelevant to this thread.

  Besides what market  do You refer to?! 1.2 billion gamers that  do not  play on Sansar?!

  Next step for gaming is Google STADIA, thats how the market works.

  Edited by COCA Yven April 02, 2019 16:59
• 0
  
  Bluebell April 02, 2019 17:05

  And you are going to get those 1.2 billion in here if Sansar changes to what you think it should be? Wow, that is amazing, you should create your own virtual world. 

  Irreverent is your view on how Sansar should be as it isn't. Your posts are not very constructive and very negative. 

  And FYI, you is not written as You. Just you. 

• 0
  
  COCA Yven April 02, 2019 19:51

  @Bluebell

   

  If Sansar didnt adopt play money, at this very moment there would be a few hundred game developers that would have already spend in total way over 6 digit figures, and there would be at last a dozen experiences hosting on  regular basis at peak time anything from 40 to 80 thousand clients logged in their instances.

  Games on Sansar platform would be a perfect platform for simple VR 2.5D scroll  gaming with high input lag which would have been perfect for google STADIA cloud based service 1 click provider.

  Please before you post any more nonsense  do a little research about  STADIA

  https://store.google.com/uk/category/stadia

   

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeFnQrgtZ9k

  But as I said, all of this is irrelevant as sansar has  gone on steam as a game itself instead of being a game developer engine, so this has put an end at its time for  it to be anywhere viable for creating gaming or entertainment content on it  for those who  make a living  out of it.

   

  Please do try to understand that this post is TWO YEARS OLD and is referred to a product that marketed back then as something  totally different.

   

  In early stages of Sansar Linden Lab CEO and its senior developers where talking about a platform where the  experience developer  would have been able  for example to make a MARS game, and lock people to login into that  dressed ONLY as the game developer   designed them to be...eg a space suit  and not a furry bought on marketplace.

  With clients paying   to participate in a certain experience or service offered in it, eg like education

   

  After 2016 preview things started go take a different twist as the SDK development had never managed to define precisely its product and monetization policy and synergies and as a result it ended in time on Steam as a freebie game,which  in few words made Sansar content as a whole Linden Lab's propietary content precisely because of play money.

   

  It is as if You are  Your tuber and your content  ends up belonging to Google because the  people who are subscribed to Your channel when buying something from You Google ask the client to first buy google play money and then  pay  for the good you wish and at the same time, cutting in the margin of the creator itself.

   

  Imagine if You wanted to advertise on someones channel on You tube and  You  are force to first buy google play money  to pay the content creator, how would that work for You as a company?!

   

  It is totally understandable that You like making Your things on Sansar and  wish for it to be successful , and that is fine for what You like to do...

   

  ...But form a  business perspective for  content creators or game developers, who aim for at least 5 digit figures it  is a past thing that had its chance.

  Unfortunately Sansar is not even appetible for eg SL Live performers, who on average make anything  from 1000 to 2 thousand dollars a month in Second Life.

  having play money   now or not doesnt make any difference at this point, as Sansar has defined  finally its product as being precisely  what VR Chat is today....

  These are the reviews

  https://gyazo.com/2a39fe52ba94a830aa1983f3c1032e7c

  Sansar 63% of the 144 user reviews for this game are positive (which doesnt  make a thumbs up on Steam)

  https://gyazo.com/2eefd1a9b298a27ba518b2a8d2d13f05

   

  VR CHAT 88% of the 28,615 user reviews for this game are positive(which warrants a very positive thumbs up)

  https://gyazo.com/485e67801e9e51911318ddbaea1a06b6

   

  CounterStrike (free to play without addons)

  https://gyazo.com/ba0f4f91ebd021713b4c73846045a5fb

   

  The Vanishing of Ethan Carter (this title was made by 4 individuals and sold 600 thousand copies in its first year) a perfectly feasible game on a platform like Sansar

  it was 2014 Sansar wasnt even in works back then

   

  https://gyazo.com/47df04bd3d2f4f427264170949f5d36a

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vanishing_of_Ethan_Carter

   

  Little Nightmares another similar story

   

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Nightmares

   

  It is now 2019 with 8 months left to 2020 and core feature requests  was over long time ago for Sansar, and as I see it, there should have been many experiences listed on the Steam Store and NOT a Sansar Game.

  https://gyazo.com/390ebdbfa30b89a1e621cff3ec02cb33

   

  Edited by COCA Yven April 02, 2019 20:01